Comprehending Medjugorje : Original Documents And Conversations with Arnaud Dumouch
Reference (French Edition) :
Daria Klanac, Comprendre Medjugorje : Regard historique et théologique, avec la collaboration du théologien Arnaud Dumouch, Informativni centar Mir, Medjugorje, en coédition avec les Éditions Sakramento, Paris, 2012, 2e éd. (1re éd. 2008, ISBN 978-2-915380-19-4 & 978-9958-36017-6), chapitre v, pages 48 à 103.
English Translation by Duško Čondić
Upon his return from Zagreb on the third day of the apparitions, the pastor in Medjugorje, fra Jozo Zovko, will call Jakov Čolo to the parish house. He is the youngest of the six young people who claim that they see the Virgin. It was expected that it would not be difficult to unmask any deception, recognize what it is all about, and come to know who incited whom. We can be convinced of this by listening to the audio-tape which is the first and original document.
[duration: 30 minutes]
Fra Jozo: Jakiša, come now… tell me all about how you spoke with the Gospa, go on…
Jakov: The first time was when we came… the Gospa did not say anything to us… until we left: “Go in the peace of God,” she said to us. The next time we came, we asked: “Gospe, Gospe, why are we gathered here?” She said: “So that all of us can be in peace.”… those… ”there are many good faithful here.” Here… Marina… when she went… she went and she didn’t say it at first up there: “Go in the peace of God,” but the Gospa told her to call us. But we weren’t there… we weren’t there… but we came late… and the Gospa left… and like a butterfly. The first time we came like a swallow… they… like this… below white, and on top like a black swallow… they… she was… and she flew away. And yesterday it was a butterfly… black… black spots on it.
Fra Jozo: And who else saw the butterfly?
Jakov: I saw it… they… and the women saw the butterfly.
Fra Jozo: How do you remember it?… I know, but describe the Gospa… how was she… how were her eyes?
Jakov: The eyes of the Gospa were blue… and she had a white shawl on her head and beneath was a grey dress. Her feet could not be seen… because of her dress… her dress was long.
Fra Jozo: Ma!… come on!
Jakov: How beautiful she is!
Fra Jozo: Did you fold your hands… do you remember? Did you think to say anything right away… to pray?
Jakov: I did.
Fra Jozo: What did you say to her?
Jakov: We prayed the seven Our Fathers, then the Hail Mary… and everything.
Fra Jozo: Did you talk with her about anything?
Jakov: We didn’t… yesterday?… we did yesterday.
Fra Jozo: Tell me… what was it like yesterday? Tell me all in order… everything that you know that happened yesterday… go on…
Jakov: First like this… there… she… they speak… before we left: “Tell the Gospa to leave something… some kind of a sign!” And we just said: “Gospe, leave some kind of sign,”… she said: “I will come again tomorrow.”
Fra Jozo: When?… Today?
Jakov: That she will come today.
Fra Jozo: At what time did she say?
Jakov: At six… like yesterday… at six. But today she will come in another place… where we were the day before. It’s closer there. Yesterday it was too far.
Fra Jozo: Tell me… why is she changing places? Did you ask her?
Jakov: We didn’t. We will ask her all about it today.
Fra Jozo: When? What will you ask her today?
Jakov: I will ask her again: “Gospe, why are we gathered here… why are you coming to us?… I will ask her…
Fra Jozo: Did anyone ask that before?
Jakov: We didn’t… We asked, Gospe… they… they… Before she spoke to us, she said: “I am coming here because there are many believers.”
Fra Jozo: What else did she say?
Jakov: She told us all to be in peace… she said… that all of us should make peace.
Fra Jozo: Did she say anything else?
Jakov: She did not. She told Marina… she said: “God in the peace of God.” She called us… we did not…
Fra Jozo: Which Marina?
Jakov: This one… here… that is here. She called us and we didn’t come… we did not come… and then she went. And a butterfly… like this… came out and it went upward… a butterfly…
Fra Jozo: And how does the Gospa look when she starts to appear? Did you see when she descends from Heaven?
Jakov: I did… It glowed three times when we saw her… it glowed three times… and then… all at once… the Gospa appeared. We immediately ran up the hill.
Fra Jozo: Who saw her first?
Jakov: This… my cousin.
Fra Jozo: What did she say?
Jakov: Look… It’s shining. I said: “Here is the Gospa… up there,” and then we all ran up the hill… and while she was talking to us she said to us: “Stand up!” We stood up, and she said: “Don’t kneel anymore,”… she said to us.
Fra Jozo: Come on! Did she say anything else?
Jakov: When she spoke to us… she nodded her head like this… when we saw her yesterday … the day before… we asked will she come again… she said… like this… she
Fra Jozo: That she will?
Jakov: That she will come.
Fra Jozo: Now, tell me… did she say anything else?
Jakov: No… nothing else.
Fra Jozo: How long did that last… time?
Jakov: Half an hour… about… less than half an hour.
Fra Jozo: Would you now know how to come to the exact place where that happened?
Jakov: Pa!… I would know… but we would not know how to come to that place… we immediately saw her from the road and then ran up immediately.
Fra Jozo: I’m curious… yesterday you brought flowers to the place.
Jakov: I also carried a sprinkler [holy water] with me.
Fra Jozo: You didn’t!… come on now!…
Jakov: And we sprinkled up there…
Fra Jozo: Did you say any prayers?
Jakov: Hail Mary…
Fra Jozo: Did she say anything then?
Jakov: Gospa?… she didn’t say anything to us then.
Fra Jozo: And was she pleased that you sprinkled her?
Jakov: Yes… half of them fainted up there.
Fra Jozo: Who?
Jakov: This cousin… she fainted… she became dizzy…
Fra Jozo: Ma!… Where?
Jakov: Up there.
Fra Jozo: What?… fainted?…
Jakov: I don’t know… first Ivica fell… then my cousin after her… then Vida. Only me and Marina did not…
Fra Jozo: And what else? Let’s say… how do you know where she will appear?
Jakov: But I know why… she told us that yesterday. We asked: Gospe, leave us a sign,”… she said… ”I will come tomorrow at the old place,”… where we were the day before.
Fra Jozo: Is it closer to the road… is it closer to your house?
Jakov: It’s not… a bit closer where we were yesterday… a bit down there…
Fra Jozo: The road? And how… is she on the rocks? On what?
Jakov: She is not… she stands like this… in the air…
Fra Jozo: In the air?
Jakov: Not far in the air… the same as yesterday… she is the same…
Fra Jozo: The same?
Fra Jozo: Dressed the same?…
Jakov: Dressed the same… only that the day before yesterday she was a swallow… and now a butterfly.
Fra Jozo: And did all three of you see the same image of the Gospa… I mean… is she the same to all of you?
Jakov: We did… but Marina didn’t see her at first from the road… but I saw her. And then they said where should we go… and we went up the hill… she said… like this… as though we all fell. I was in the thorny briars… and nothing.
Fra Jozo: What do you mean fell?
Jakov: Like this… I knelt…
Fra Jozo: Knelt?
Jakov: And Marina… they… stepped on a wasp’s nest… that one… Marina… and nothing…
Fra Jozo: And why do you think… why nothing?
Jakov: Look… I think because the Gospa appeared there… and… look… nothing…
Fra Jozo: Tell me… did you say anything to her in your prayers?
Jakov: We only prayed… but I didn’t say anything…
Fra Jozo: You didn’t speak?
Jakov: I think I will speak today… and before… I was a little bit afraid…
Fra Jozo: Pa!… were you afraid of her?
Fra Jozo: You!
Jakov: I was not… the first time I was… but now I’m not…
Fra Jozo: Did she say anything to you… not to be afraid?
Jakov: Who? She did not. For when she calls me tomorrow… like this… she spoke to us… when she was in the other place were we were day before yesterday…
Fra Jozo: Do you hear?… did you hear what this one said… whatever one… Marina or the others? Do you hear everything they said to the Gospa?
Jakov: We did… but the Gospa to us…
Fra Jozo: And do you hear? When the Gospa speaks do you all hear the same thing… all of you together?
Jakov: We hear.
Fra Jozo: And when… let us say… she departs, when she leaves you… do you continue to see her while the others do not?
Jakov: Who?… I don’t know! I see her… everything starts to spread before her… and all at once… she is gone. When she speaks to us it’s like she is singing.
Fra Jozo: What?… like she’s singing?
Jakov: She speaks to us as though she is singing.
Fra Jozo: What!… as though she is singing? As though she doesn’t know how to speak nicely!
Jakov: She knows how to speak nicely… Pa!… I’m telling you!… she speaks nicely.
Fra Jozo: And did she say that people should come today?
Jakov: She didn’t say anything about people… she only told us… she said… that we should come yesterday were we were the day before. It went slowly… it was said… there were people.
Fra Jozo: The people aren’t important… the Gospa is important. When you… let us say… say: “Look!… I see the Gospa,”… do the other see her too?
Jakov: I don’t know… I saw her. Then when… ”There is the Gospa,” then all looked and see her… and all ran up the hill… and how we ran… and there. But when we descend the hill…
Fra Jozo: What?… when you descend?
Jakov: Like… not the same way… we can’t the same way… like when we ran up the hill.
Fra Jozo: It was more difficult for you?
Jakov: It was more difficult… but while we were climbing like this up the hill… but when you descend even easier. But it was not for me.
Fra Jozo: After that, were you afraid to go home? You couldn’t sleep?
Jakov: I was afraid…
Fra Jozo: Did you say anything to your mother?
Jakov: I did. She said… mama asked me… she said: “Don’t tell me about it… I’m scared.
Fra Jozo: Mama said? And did you say any prayers until supper time?
Jakov: We pray every night.
Fra Jozo: And… do you like the Gospa? Let’s say… do you have a picture of the Gospa in your prayer book or catechism?
Jakov: I don’t have a prayer book. I have a catechism… the Gospa’s… there. But I would like to have a prayer book also so that…
Fra Jozo: I will give you a prayer book. Now tell me this… will you be afraid this evening?
Jakov: No I won’t… I won’t. Why should I be afraid… just the first time I was a little bit afraid… but now… I not.
Fra Jozo: You’re an interesting one, Jakiša, really, you are. And she says nothing to you?
Jakov: We… I will ask her tonight. I was a bit afraid before… but now I’m not anymore.
Fra Jozo: And, are you happy that you saw the Gospa?
Jakov: How could I not be happy?!
Fra Jozo: And what all did you hear that she said to you? Go on! Go ahead and say.
Jakov: She spoke to us… when we were yesterday…
Fra Jozo: No… to you… to you.
Jakov: To me?
Fra Jozo: What did you yourself hear?
Jakov: I heard when she said to us: “Go in the peace of God.”
Fra Jozo: What else did you hear?
Jakov: And I heard how she said that… they… that all of us be in peace… that all of us make peace. And I heard when she said… they… because we are all together here… because there are in this country… in our Jugoslavia… ”many believers.”
Fra Jozo: And that’s why she came?
Jakov: That’s why she came. We asked her why she came… she said: “Because there are many believes in this country.” I say: “Leave us some sort of miracle” She said: “I will come again tomorrow.”
Fra Jozo: Where will she come?
Jakov: She will come where we were the day before yesterday… the first time.
Fra Kosir: But she didn’t say that; she didn’t say that she would come to the first place.
Jakov: Yes she did.
Fra Kosir: How did she say it?
Fra Jozo: Do you know how to come to the place? Would you know how to come to the place right now… or is there some sign that leads you up the hill like last night?
Jakov: No I wouldn’t know that. But we see her… the Gospa and when we see her we then go on up to see her.
Fra Kosir: Good… and did you run? Did you get out of breath and were you good and tired?
Jakov: Not at all… nothing was wrong with me.
Fra Kosir: You weren’t out of breath?
Jakov: There was nothing wrong with me. As I ran up the hill… and there… like that.
Fra Kosir: And when you returned, were you tired?
Jakov: When I was returning, I tired myself out. And when I first ran… Mara said: “How did you mange to run that way up the hill?”… It was like nothing to me.
Fra Jozo: And through the thorny briars?
Fra Kosir: Good… now tell me this… You saw some films about the Gospa? Did you or didn’t you?
Jakov: I did… a lot of them. When the Sister would…
Fra Kosir: Tell me… did you ever wish: if only the Gospa would appear to me like this?
Jakov: Well… yes I did. But I now say… I said: Even if I were to die right now, I would not be sorry now that I have seen the Gospa.
Fra Kosir: That’s all good and well, but did you ever hope for that, let us say, a year ago, or more than a year ago?
Jakov: No, nothing of the sort.
Fra Kosir: You didn’t hope that the Gospa would perhaps appear to you… you didn’t even think of that?
Jakov: I didn’t even know about that.
Fra Kosir: That she could appear?
Fra Kosir: Ah, so.
Jakov: Only in some country… they say that a small girl was told by the Gospa: “Bring me some water.” I’ll go home and get some. She said: “There… dig down into the dirt.” And, immediately, they say, a some sort of spring welled up…
Fra Kosir: You heard that?
Jakov: In some book it says…
Fra Kosir: Yes, yes. Good… who called you to come along up the hill?
Jakov: These… right here… that first saw her.
Fra Kosir: And who are they? They talked to you and you and you went with them, is that it?
Jakov: No. They… he says… we are going to see if the Gospa [appeared]… we will call you. And they ran off and one came to us, there’s the one that came to us… he says.
Fra Kosir: Which one came?
Jakov: This one… Vida.
Fra Kosir: And where were you at the time?
Jakov: I was with this one… Marina. I was at their house.
Fra Kosir: And what were you doing at their house?
Jakov: We were there sitting. Vida said: “Mare! Mare!” And we said: “What is it?” “There’s the Gospa!” And then we went there right away. All of a sudden I saw the Gospa and we immediately ran up the hill. The first time they saw her, they didn’t dare go up there. It was dark, they said.
Fra Jozo: Dark?
Fra Kosir: Good, how close did you come to her?
Jakov: The Gospa was there… and we knelt here.
Fra Kosir: And why did you kneel… tell me the truth?
Jakov: Well, I like to pray to God that way.
Fra Kosir: Quite, quite! Did they kneel first, or you… or together?
Jakov: We all knelt together.
Fra Kosir: You saw them do it first!?
Jakov: What… like I don’t know how to kneel!? We said… let’s kneel and pray to God. We were praying to God… and…
Fra Kosir: Tell me… when was the last time you went to confession?
Jakov: When you last heard our confessions.
Fra Kosir: Aha! You received communion then, didn’t you?
Jakov: I did… I received communion. If I have a serious sin, I confess it and…
Fra Kosir: Then… you go to communion frequently?
Fra Kosir: Often… Sundays and the like?
Fra Kosir: Good for you!
Fra Jozo: Tell me this, Jakiša… now… what are you going to say to her tonight? Did someone prompt you what to say?
Jakov: Me?… no one… it’s in my head like this… in my thoughts.
Fra Jozo: And what is in your thought right now? What are you going to say to her?
Jakov: To tell her: “Gospe, why did you come here?” And I will say to her: “Why did you come here to us… and what do you want to tell us?” That what I will say. That’s in my thoughts. Why should anyone have prompt me… as do I don’t know how?
Fra Jozo: Will you remember everything that I tell you?
Jakov: I will.
Fra Jozo: And was she the same yesterday as the day before?
Jakov: The same… the same. Everything the same.
Fra Jozo: Was there any difference at all?
Jakov: There was no difference. Just that she was a swallow the day before, and a butterfly yesterday.
Fra Jozo: What do you mean a swallow?
Jakov: A swallow. When the Gospa left, a swallow immediately went up into the air from the thorny briars like this… and then… yesterday… a butterfly.
Fra Kosir: How long did you kneel before her… what do you think?
Jakov: Half and hour… so-so.
Fra Kosir: That’s not possible!
Jakov: It is. We did kneel. We were with her for half an hour… and yesterday she said to us “Stand up.”
Fra Kosir: Ma!… you were before her for half an hour!?
Jakov: Why… before her for half an hour… then when she left… day before yesterday…
Fra Kosir: And… did you get tired kneeling?
Jakov: Why should I get tired? And then… yesterday, we want to go home… when from above, she came down once again… and remained there until she went up again.
Fra Jozo: What did she say?
Jakov: Pa!… ”Go in God’s peace,” she said to us.
Fra Kosir: And you heard it?
Jakov: And why wouldn’t I?
Fra Kosir: And is her voice similar to a teacher or some woman… or the like… when you hear her?
Jakov: No, it’s not. Her voice is so beautiful… as though she was singing that how she talks… her voice is beautiful.
Fra Kosir: Good, good! Nice!
Fra Jozo: And she didn’t say what you should… what you need to pray?
Jakov: She did not.
Fra Jozo: That you should listen to your mother?
Jakov: She said she would come tomorrow.
Fra Kosir: Were you afraid at all… did you sleep?
Jakov: No, I was not. I slept the best yesterday. But, the first night I was afraid.
Fra Jozo: From what?
Jakov: I was afraid of it.
Fra Jozo: Were they afraid?
Jakov: I don’t know.
Fra Jozo: Will you be afraid tonight, or not?
Jakov: No, I won’t be. Why should I be afraid? The first time I saw her I was afraid… but the next time…
Fra Jozo: And did she say anything… will she come again?
Jakov: Yesterday she told us she would come today: “At the old,” she said, “place.”
Fra Kosir: Did she really say “old place”?
Jakov: Yes, she did.
Fra Kosir: How did she say it?
Jakov: She said… said… ”I will come to the old place,”… where we were the day before yesterday.
Fra Kosir: At the old place?
Jakov: Yes, she told us.
Fra Jozo: And you will go there? Will anyone else go with you other than the three of you?
Jakov: We will all go.
Fra Kosir: And would you know how to find that place? Will you go with them?
Fra Jozo: Do you first see her, and then go… or?
Jakov: We first… We first see the Gospa, and then we go. Yesterday it shined three times… like this… and then the Gospa appeared, and…
Fra Jozo: What do you mean shined?
Jakov: Like this… it shines. First once… then a second time… and then a third time.
Fra Jozo: How long did the shining last?
Jakov: About… about five minutes.
Fra Kosir: Did you perhaps mix that up? Is it possible that you knelt a half hour?
Jakov: We didn’t kneel… I’m telling you.
Fra Kosir: Then… ?
Jakov: Then we knelt… and then the Gospa said to us: “Get up.”
Fra Kosir: And you think you knelt before her for half an hour? You think?
Jakov: I didn’t… I don’t know… but I say that the Gospa said: “Get up” We want to kneel once again when the Gospa said: “Don’t kneel anymore.”
Fra Kosir: And did you… good… how long did you observe her… what do you think?
Jakov: We were with her half an hour… I think.
Fra Jozo: And… what’s when you don’t talk to her?… You only look at her… is that it?
Fra Kosir: Did you pray anything?
Jakov: We prayed there.
Fra Kosir: Did you pray silently or all together pray something?
Jakov: We prayed together.
Fra Kosir: We prayed the Hail Mary, The Angel of the Lord, we pray everything… Our Fathers… seven of them…
Fra Jozo: Now… this interests me… does she… when she departs and when that apparition ends for you… what does she say?
Jakov: “Go in God’s peace!”
Fra Jozo: I know… and what becomes of her?
Jakov: Well, she… like this… the same as though she is spreading out… and at once… she is gone… above. Some sort of sign of the Cross appears in the sky.
Fra Jozo: How big is the sign? Is it this big?
Jakov: No, its not… it’s like this…
Fra Jozo: Is it shiny?
Jakov: Yes… like the Cross… about the same.
Fra Kosir: And, could you say where she went… left, right… up?
Jakov: Just like this… she went straight up.
Fra Jozo: And she said nothing about herself?
Jakov: No, nothing…
Fra Jozo: Ma!… please!… Are you ever going to ask… let us say… go on—ask her tonight to say something about herself. What do you think?
Jakov: I’ll ask her.
Fra Jozo: What are you going to ask? Tell me once more!
Jakov: I’ll ask her… like… I’ll ask her again: “Gospe… like… Gospe… why are you coming to us, and say something to us… ” Yesterday she said to us to come and that she will tell us something.
Fra Jozo: Where?
Jakov: She told us below… closer… below…
Fra Jozo: That she will tell you today?
Fra Kosir: At the old place?
Jakov: Yesterday… yesterday she thought to tell us… but we didn’t come.
Fra Jozo: What do you mean you didn’t come?
Jakov: Well… we were up there… and that one… Marina… she ran down. She said someone… something was pulling her down… and suddenly when she turned around, the Gospa appeared.
Fra Jozo: Now wait!… did you see her yesterday?
Jakov: Yes, I did.
Fra Jozo: Then, what are you saying that she didn’t say…
Jakov: But… Reverend… we were all the way up! And she came… over here! Marina came near to the road below and the Gospa followed her. And she said: “Where are the other four… I want to tell you something.” And then… and then… she waited for us about five minutes… and then she departed.
Fra Kosir: And will you ask the Gospa if she has any message for the people? Will you say that to her?
Jakov: But… I say: “What do you want to tell us?”… I will say…
Fra Jozo: What are we supposed to say to the people? This interests me… let us say… when you came home, were you able to pray?
Jakov: Yes, I was.
Fra Jozo: What did you say to the Gospa?
Jakov: I said… we were… My mother prays the Angel of the Lord Declared unto Mary every night… and still some other prayers.
Fra Jozo and FRA KOSIR: Right… right…
Fra Jozo: And last night… let us say… after you saw her… did you pray anything in particular? Were you glad to see the Gospa?
Jakov: I did. Every night we say: “My dear Gospa… good night… come to us every night.” I always say that…
Fra Kosir: Right!… Right! Now tell me, when did you get home?
Fra Jozo: Was it dark?
Jakov: No, it was not.
Fra Kosir: What did you say to yours at home? What did you say to them… first of all? Who was at home? Who was at home when you came back home?
Fra Kosir: Alone?
Fra Kosir: And what did you say to her?
Jakov: I said: “Mama, Mama… I saw the Gospa.” She said: “Come on now son!… what? I said: “Seriously, mama, I saw the Gospa.” She said: Maybe you did… how do I know?”… she said: “All right… I’ll see… ” Tomorrow she will come again. When she was there she looked… when the Gospa went upward… upward… like this. Up to the sky… like this.
Fra Jozo: And Mama … saw her too?
Fra Jozo: Who else of the grownups saw her… Mama… ?
Jakov: That was when we came there the first time… all came there.
Fra Kosir: Ma! no… brother… not so fast…
Fra Jozo: Of the grownups… did Mama see her like you?
Fra Kosir: When you came home… did Mama see?… yesterday… in your house!?
Jakov: Last night?… She did the first night.
Fra Kosir: And Mama the first night? And last night? Did Mama holler at you?
Jakov: Pa!… why should she holler at me?
Fra Kosir: It’s nothing.
Fra Jozo: And who else of the grownups saw her? Your Mama… who else?
Jakov: They all came… all of them… everyone from our village came.
Fra Jozo: And did they all see?
Fra Jozo: What did they see?
Jakov: When we first came, one woman said: “There’s the Gospa!” Someone said: “I see something, but it isn’t the same”… she said… ”like the Gospa.”
Fra Jozo: And did you see anything at the time… or not?
Jakov: The first night I saw. As soon as I came, I spotted… and then we ran up the hill.
Fra Kosir: That means, then… you saw her twice?
Fra Kosir: Only last night… up close?
Jakov: Pa!… two nights we were close-up to her. Like this… the Gospa is there… and we are here.
Fra Jozo: And did Iva Šego see her?
Fra Jozo: How did she see her? Did you hear if she was saying anything… Iva?
Jakov: I didn’t hear anything… but one… that Stipe… his little one… ”Go ahead… see the Gospa. Go one… and he didn’t see.
Fra Jozo: He didn’t see?
Jakov: He didn’t see.
Fra Jozo: Pa!… how could he see? Would I be able to see… what do you think… if I went?
Jakov: You would be able to see.
Fra Jozo: I would be able to see?
Fra Kosir: How do you know that fra Jozo would be able to see her?
Jakov: Like this… that is… Iva goes to church everyday… and so she saw her too… [fra Jozo laughs out loud wholeheartedly].
Fra Kosir: Pa!… because Jozo… I suppose… says Mass… pa!…
Jakov: Pa!… that’s what I say too. Pa!… Jozo should be able to see her too.
Fra Kosir: So… that’s what you think, is it?
Fra Jozo: Would Zrinko be able to see her?
Jakov: Pa!… Zrinko and you too. Pa!… yes you could. All of you friars could… all of you could see the Gospa.
Fra Kosir: Then… that means that you are glad that you saw it?
Jakov: Why wouldn’t I be glad?
Fra Kosir: Are you going to be… let us say… better than you were until now?
Jakov: Pa!… I will.
Fra Jozo: And you’ll go tonight… won’t you?
Jakov: I will.
Fra Jozo: Good!… go ahead, then, and ask if we must come?
Fra Kosir: And what if they stop you… if they don’t allow you to go… Mama… or someone else?
Jakov: Who’s going to stop me if I want to go? Me… that is… the desire draws me to go up there.
Fra Kosir: And if Mama says no?
Jakov: She can’t stop me… I’ll want to…
Fra Kosir: She can’t?
Fra Jozo: How would your tell her?
Jakov: I would say: “Mama, I want to go… even if you kill me… you can kill me… but I will go again.”
Fra Jozo: Yes, I know… but when God tells us listen to your Mama… what will you say then?
Jakov: I will go to God above… I will go to the Gospa above… and that’s it.
Fra Jozo: And she said nothing else to you?
Jakov: She did not.
Fra Jozo: And were you afraid when the police came today?
Jakov: No, I wasn’t.
Fra Jozo: What else are you going to say to her tonight… go ahead and say… Jakov
Jakov: I will say do you have to come… and I will say… that is… ”Gospe, what did you intend to say to us?”